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[00:00:00] Krista: Welcome Mamas to Secret Mom Hacks. This is Krista, your host. We have a fantastic interview all set up for you today. I'm really excited to introduce you to a friend who is also in the fellow PR world, media world with me. That's really how we connected. Mamas, I'm super excited to introduce you to my friend Kia Jarmon who is one kick butt media pro publicity guru, and of course a mama, which is why we have her on today's episode.

She is known as KISS with A Fist. She is an entrepreneur who intersects between communication, culture, crisis, and community. Most specifically through her leadership with MEPR Agency, a boutique communications and community engagement agency that she founded in 2006.

Now I could go on, her bio page is very extensive, but again, that is the professional side of who she is. We're here today to talk about parenthood, mom-life, all of that stuff, and we're gonna dig into that meat here in just a minute. But Kia, welcome. Thank you for being here. And tell me what I missed.

What else should our listeners know about you?

[00:01:28] Kia: Well, thank you. I'm so excited to be back with you because this is the second time that we've had the opportunity to have this conversation or have a conversation. And then we were in very different places with our life. And so now we have additions by way of our children and that's such a blessing.

The hard thing that I've been doing, or the hard work that I've been doing over the last few years is to in some ways divorce from that professional self. So that is who I am. Absolutely. But my identity was so caught in that all of those titles that I had forgotten some of the other things that I love, like taking naps and adventures and collecting art and hiking and being out on the trailways and the greenways like I did this morning.

And so I just, I am those things and I am also all of this other piece. And I bring that up because very often as women, we have to segment our lives and I didn't want to keep doing that. I wanna be the fullness of who I am. And though I felt like I was doing that as I was evaluating, I really realized I was only maybe being one thing. And of course being a mom, you have to be so many things. So I'm fully embracing all of the titles of who I am. And so you didn't get anything, you didn't miss anything. Um, I'm just those things and.

[00:02:50] Krista: I love that. It's so easy. Well, I'm sure we'll get into this here again in our conversation, but that juggle that juggling all the plates of all of our different identities and doing our best to do our best in each of them.

[00:03:08] Kia: Yep. Yep.

[00:03:09] Krista: I'm so happy you touched on that. Well, let's jump into mom life.

So you have one little one.

[00:03:17] Kia: Yep. He's seven years old going on like 17.

[00:03:21] Krista: Yes,

[00:03:23] Kia: His name is Teddy. And yeah, it's, it's a ride. I never, I never knew about . You just don't know until you get on it.

[00:03:34] Krista: You just don't Kia. And that is why that is my inspiration behind this podcast is there is so much nobody tells you. You can read up on all the books and like what you know in terms of pregnancy and what to expect that first year and the toddler years and all of that. But all of our journeys are so different and no book is going to equip.

It's, I think it's helpful to for sure research and equip yourself as much as you can, but all of our journeys are gonna be so different, so...

[00:04:09] Kia: Yeah. Super, super different. Nothing prepared me for this. And in some ways, because I'm just a very truthful person. I, I think that's very purposeful. There's some reasons why we don't need to know everything about lots of things, parenting, relationships, life, because in some ways we just wouldn't embark on some of those journeys in the same way or at all if we knew all of the details.

So I'm kind of glad I didn't know some of the things so that I could just go in maybe naively but also in, in that way where I was able to just learn through the process along with my son in particular.

[00:04:45] Krista: So tell us as much or as little as you wish to share about Teddy's birth story.

[00:04:52] Kia: Yes. So I had midwives, and my purpose for that was really to have more of a voice in the process. And then, and, and consider as holistic as possible of a process. Not necessarily going the route of home birth, though I think that's perfectly fine, but I did want to go as natural as possible until I just couldn't anymore.

So I had all these kind of plans and you know, they say like you make all the plans and then God shows you your plans are great, but mine are better. And so what happened was, I don't know that I've ever talked about this. My father had a heart attack. I was 42 weeks pregnant.

So I was already two weeks over, so we knew at some point he was gonna have to come on. My father had a heart attack right before I had my son, and it was almost like just divine timing or divine ways things work. He had two heart surgeries from that heart attack. And the day that he came out was the day that I went in and I remember waddling up to the hospital that he was in, and it was the hospital they don't deliver babies in.

So they were very concerned about me, maybe even slightly more than my dad because they could handle the cardiology work, they could not handle having a baby in their hospital. And so they were like, ma'am, please don't have this baby here. So I went in because we were losing fluid as happens, you know, they can only stay in your stomach for so long.

I had a room with a tub in it because I thought I would labor in the tub first and then I was gonna do a little bit of gas. And then we would maybe at the very end, if I needed, I was gonna do I would do an epidural or I would just push. So that was the plan. What actually ended up happening was I went in, they had me on monitors.

They were very concerned about his heart rate because he was flipping on the umbilical cord. So they were monitoring me throughout the evening. The next morning they were like, he's not coming. I never dilated, I've never had a contraction. I never went into labor. I had a cesarean on July 23rd, 2014, and that was all she wrote.

So you know, I love my birth story. I also realized there were more people than I realized who had a similar birth story in terms of never laboring and never dilating. I never thought that happened. I mean, clearly I know I'm not an anomaly in that way, but I was just like, gosh, I didn't feel anything, you know?

The plan that I had just didn't happen, and that's okay. I always say I have a beautiful scar and a beautiful kid, and I'm grateful that all worked out the way it was supposed to.

[00:07:27] Krista: Yes, more than you know. Your story is so similar to so many of ours, including mine. You listeners who are checking out the podcast, if you haven't already, you can hear my birth story here on Secret Mom Hacks, so go check that out at some point. Kia, when we connect offline, I will share mine with you, but yes, lots of similarities there for sure.

What is something no one told you about be becoming a mom? Whether it's through the birth process or through, just in general. Now you're saying he is right now seven. So what's something either early on in those infant stages that you can think of, or even now thinking of present day Teddy what is something that just nobody told you about?

[00:08:15] Kia: Oh gosh there are so many things I wasn't told. You know, one thing I didn't know or think about or even didn't register the way that maybe it should have. Partly because I don't know that the doctor's offices do a great job of this is I didn't necessarily the milestones that children are supposed to hit.

And so I knew there was a questionnaire, you go in the doctor's office, they give you a questionnaire. Are they doing these things? Are they not doing these things? And nothing ever seemed off. So no one ever really talked about it with me. And you just, I just didn't know, like, oh, they need to be talking it up, saying these many words by this age, or saying these sounds by this age.

So when they become school age, I was like, well, is he missing something or not? Is he not missing something? They're like, no, he is not. Well, how would you know? I mean, so how do you know as a parent? And so there are books around that. There are milestone guides, there are all these things, but I just didn't necessarily have that kind of, okay, we're at month three and this is what's supposed to be happening.

So that's probably one thing. The thing that nobody else told me, but I believe, I intuitively know, and this is if anyone ever asked me advice about this, this is what I tell them. Doctors are very smart, but mothers are smarter and you know your kid best, you intuitively know. And so we didn't have a lot of doctor's visits or we never had any emergency room visits as a young person or even now, because I intuitively knew what to do and I didn't know if that would happen, because that doesn't happen for everyone. And I've heard many stories of that where sometimes you just don't intuitively know. The mom intuition doesn't necessarily jump in, but for me it just did. And so, and I'm glad about that, but I didn't know if it would, so that's something I didn't talk about with anybody either, was knowing what to do when, you know what happens when your kid can't talk and you need to know, is this gas or is this really an issue? So those are the type of things that I also, that I think about, and I'm sure I have other things that as we talk, I will bring up. But those are a couple things I think about.

[00:10:22] Krista: So what's something again, baby or kid gear, that has been a lifesaver for you. Thinking back to the very beginning, reflecting on something that was oh my gosh, this was so helpful, and even now as a seven year old, is there something that's just like, I'm so happy I have this. This makes everything so much easier.

[00:10:42] Kia: Yes. So when I give baby gifts people have their registry and bless them for that. But I never give the stuff on their registry. Especially if they're a first time parent, I give them the real stuff that I know works. So the thing that I love the most, it saved my life was the NoseFrida so that I could suck all that crap out of his nose. It's the most disgusting thing. You will see it and it will freak you out . But it is a lifesaver, particularly for my kid who had a lot, who has and has a lot of sinus issues. And so getting all of that stuff out, that was such a lifesaver. Um, wearing him. So as a baby baby, wearing him, like having, I used the Moby and I also used the Ergo.

Being able to really have him close. One of the things that you maybe take for granted or don't think about is that for really for 10 months, they're in your belly, they're protected, and then all of a sudden they're out exposed into the world. They still need that closeness and so, that was really helpful. As an older person, I would say the hack that I actually started as a younger person was to travel. So travel with your kids very young if you desire to do that so that they know what to do so they can anticipate what's happening. For my son it was also so that he can learn my serious voice. Because when you're traveling, it can be very overwhelming once they start moving around.

We started when he was maybe one traveling and flying. And of course they fly for free two and under, so fly as much as you can. But after they get older and start moving about they need to know what it means when you're serious. And so that's probably my other little hack is just travel with them, let them see the world .

Find places for you all to go explore. That's probably also been a really great, not necessarily, I guess it's not a super hack, but it's certainly something that I appreciate that I did early was expose him to traveling.

[00:12:34] Krista: Sure. And two, just an opportunity to see new places and encounter new types of people and everything. I love that.

[00:12:42] Kia: All types of memories and experiences we do together, for sure. Yeah.

[00:12:46] Krista: What is something that did not live up to the hype? Something that you thought, oh, this is gonna be so great and helpful, or it came highly recommended, however, and then you got it and were like, mm, not so much.

[00:13:00] Kia: The crib! He never slept in the crib. And we had the crib that would convert into a bed and it was still something about that, that he just didn't do well with. He just didn't do well. So he ended up getting a totally big boy bed and he's been in that since one or something or two, whatever the appropriate age is.

But yeah, having a crib, that didn't live up to the hype. A bassinet beside the bed, didn't live up to the hype, just all of those type of things. I'm a gadget person, so I love gadgets, or I love kind of like, oh, the latest, the greatest, the newest, shiny thing and this is where momming is different for everybody.

And so that was something that just didn't live up to the hype was having all of those devices for him to sleep in. Even had a device like a bed in the bed. He didn't like that either. None of those things lived up to the hype.

Another hack that I had was the stroller. I can't remember the name of it, but I got this stroller that I could travel with that you could pull up and pull down with one hand. And I loved that. And it actually got compact enough to fit into a backpack. So that was a super great hack, particularly for traveling.

So I wanted to remember that. And especially as a little bit older when they're three or four, they can walk, but maybe you don't want 'em to walk and you still wanna strap 'em someplace. That was really, that was really sweet for that.

[00:14:22] Krista: So we were talking at the very, very beginning in terms of just keeping it together. How do you keep it all together Kia, as a mom, as a business owner, as a community advocate, as a speaker, I mean, you are all over the place, and when I say all over the place in a really graceful, elegant way, and I really admire that.

And so how do you keep all of it together and still feel like, yes, I'm crushing it as a mom, and Teddy is happy and he knows his, he's loved, and he has a present mama.

[00:15:02] Kia: So, this is such an important question. One, a lot of grace, because, which I'm still learning for myself, like I feel like I extend a lot of grace to other people, but I'm still learning to give grace to myself to say, I am doing a great job. Because as moms, we're constantly, you can always find the thing you didn't do well.

Like, oh, if I had just gotten there five minutes earlier before daycare closed, or, oh, if I had just, I mean, whatever. Like there's, so many things. If I had just watched 'em closer, they wouldn't have fallen. All of these things that we take the burden of, particularly as moms and so I give myself a lot of grace.

I also don't believe in balance. I believe in boundaries. And so because I own my own business and because I can design my life the way that I need to design it, I believe in having, some kind of extreme boundaries in some places where people respect my time and how I spend my time with my son. So, as an example, spring break is coming up soon we will be out of town and I will be out of touch.

I will not be available to people, and that has to be his time because he sacrifices so much other time with me to be with so that I can be out and do the work that I do. So I believe that having those boundaries, again, if you don't run your own business, the boundaries may not look the same as mine, but it does look like. From five until 8:00 PM I'm gonna spend time with my kid or I'm gonna be resting, or I'm gonna be whatever your thing is. And then I may pick back up at nine o'clock in the evening after my kid goes to bed. You'll find and define the lines for you, but for me it is making sure that people see that.

Those lines are important. I also had to start making sure people saw the full humanity of who I am. Again, in the beginning we talked about all those titles of who I am. And I also enjoy good nap. I also enjoy heading to the Greenway so I can get my vitamin D and my meditation time. And so I need that time to myself. That goes back to boundaries a little bit, but I really need people to see me doing things besides working. And so I've been good about that. And then lastly therapy and having a therapy life coach, kind of whatever people's desire, but having someone who's invested but not really that invested in your personal life in that way, right? There's some distance between you and them, and so having the ability to say, give yourself the grace. You've done a great job. Asking you questions. Were you there? You know, when they took their first step, when they said their first word, were you there when it mattered the most?

Were you there at the graduation? Were you there? Whatever the questions are. And I'm like, yeah, I was there. Okay, well you are doing what you're supposed to do. So having that additional fact check is really important to me as well. So those are the ways I think in which I really try to make sure that I can be my fullest self as a parent and also a human.

I also make sure that Teddy knows that I'm, before I was his mom, and even still as his mom, I'm also my own person. And that is difficult, but it's really important for kids to understand that so that they can see you as people. Because even as a child myself of parents, I had to see them as people to value and understand them in a different way. I always, of course, value and understood them as parents, but now I can see them as humans and I give them a lot of grace in that way too. And so I will need grace from him and so that is extended through him seeing me as a full person and not only in the lens of that's my mom, but that's my mom and she also has these other titles as as well. well.

[00:18:45] Krista: I love that. When you talk about him seeing you in those different ways, is there anything you did or said to maybe help him see you in those different ways? When I pick up Chloe from school it's so sweet.

It's one of my very favorite moments of the day. And she runs to the door and Mommy, mommy, mommy, that's the best. And then big hug. And then it's like, I want a snack and I genuinely feel sometimes she envisions me as her human snack machine or as like to do the bidding of everything she wants, and I'm like, okay, we've gotta set this boundary and this expectation and just gimme that hug right now, baby doll.

[00:19:29] Kia: Yep. Give me the hug. On Instagram I follow a few parenting psychologists and folks who, I mean there, like you said, there are tons of resources. So we're, we're never gonna not have those. But a few that have been really good about helping with language and so the example that you give is an example I know all too well about being the snack machine. I always say I have a roommate that I have to like pay for room and board for.

But these people online give really good language around... okay, you'd like a snack. So in our house, the snacks are down low. You can come ask for a snack and you can go get it, you know? And so I don't need to be the person running behind trying to get you your thing, or if I'm on the telephone, I'm unavailable.

He understands language around, I'm unavailable right now. And creating those boundaries for him as well. To, again, see me as I've gotta take this call about this thing. I've gotta do this thing over here. All of my time cannot be dedicated just to you, for me to give you my time I have to be doing this thing over here. And so some of that is about showing. You know, children are of course very visual, so just showing him, this is what I do, he has it in his mind that I'm the boss and I can fire people. So, he's gone to the other side of the extremes. On one side he is like, okay, I'll give you your space. On the other side he is like, "it doesn't matter if I interrupt you because you can just fire those people anyway." I'm like, that's not how this works. So trying to get him again just have the boundaries, but we're getting there and it's a slow process. You know, boys are very different in that way. Boys love their moms.

I mean, all children love their parents, but just saying boys really, really clinging to mom. And so getting him to also be very independent is really important, particularly as an only child in the house. And I believe he's doing a pretty good job.

So we talk all the time. We have lots of apologies too. I taught him very young. When I do something, I don't like in our relationship. I expressed to him what that is. You know, I did not like the way that I raised my voice when I said that. I did not mean to do that. I'm very sorry. Or I also ask him, what can mommy do better?

And he will tell me. And so that allows us to also see each other as humans too, and not just me in service to him because he's the kid. So those are kind of my own little hacks, I guess.

[00:21:45] Krista: Having those dialogues together so that they see, okay, she's not just barking orders at me, because guilty as charged. I can do that sometimes, I'm sure every mom can, but similarly, I have caught myself before where it's like I really don't like how I reacted to that and she did not deserve that.

And I'm not too prideful that I can't go back to her and let her know. And I think it's really important for her to hear that language so that when it happens to her, if she does something that's out of line, she realizes, oh, when mommy did that and she came to me, oh, I just did that. I need to go to that person and say, what I did was not cool, and I'm so sorry, and you did not deserve that.

Here's how it made me feel. This was the context, let's work this out and do better moving forward.

[00:22:43] Kia: That's right. Absolutely. Talking to children, I mean, they're super brilliant. I often say that it is adults that dumb children down. Just no other way to say it. Because children come out with the fullest capacity of who they are. They have the brightest vision of life.

They are brilliant because their mind only knows how to be brilliant. And then as time goes on, and because I talked to adults all day and I, I was leading a workshop recently and I said, as an adult, it's almost like every day somebody chips away joy, chips away from your joy. And as children, all they have is joy.

And so it's important for us to help them stay in that with some realities, right? Having that human experience, helping them apologize, helping them understand their ways. But that's how you have a full emotionally intelligent child that becomes a really emotionally and adept adult. That happens through doing something a little differently than maybe we saw or experienced as children is giving them a little bit gentler touch, but then also explaining things.

Right, because children can ask why a million times and actually taking the time to explain and it's annoying. Lemme tell you. Super annoying when they say why the 13th time? But they just want to know and it's our job to help them know. Yeah.

[00:24:08] Krista: And it really is how they learn. And, again, as moms of just one child so far, having to explain a more complex situation or I don't know, scenario. All we can do is explain it as best as we know how. We can try to explain it as simply as possible, but they're probably going to learn some more complex terms and it's so cute. I was, I was explaining something to Chloe actually yesterday and she came back and she didn't fully repeat everything, but she got a lot of it. But it was just so cute hearing her mispronounce the really big words.

[00:24:52] Kia: Yep. Absolutely. But you, again, in the communication world that we work in, everything you say will come back to you. So how you say it, the context you give it, the texture and color around it, all of that will come back to you. And so the same thing happens with little people is that, you give them some information and they take that.

It's funny, we had a similar conversation where I said something about, I guess in the past I've said we purchased something, whatever the purchase was. And then I said, and we bought that, and he said, I didn't know that bought and purchased were the same word. And so we talked about that just recently.

Yes. If I say purchase or bought, it means the same thing. And so for me I've always been able to communicate with him the same way I'm talking to you. So that again, when he gets older, he has all the tools. You brought something up that I think is really important. When he is in a scenario, when he is not with me, I want him to be able to refer back to what happened when I had this experience with my mom.

What happened when I got upset and what was the next step? What do we do next? I want him to be able to have those kind of his own context clues for himself. And the only way we do that is we model it for them.

[00:26:05] Krista: Absolutely. Thinking about all of the different types of moms in the world and all of the things happening in the world, and all of the things we have on our plates, what is a tip or trick or piece of advice that you would share with another mama right now?

[00:26:25] Kia: One of the things that's been really important to me in this world that we live in and I can be honest with you cuz we are friends. Very transparently, as a black mother of a black child, what's important for me is that he can be as free as he needs to be. Right?

We've kind of been circling this conversation, but making sure he has access to whatever he wants to have access to. He can go wherever he wants to go. We travel a lot. We go as many places as we can. We make as many memories as possible. And so my, my hack would be don't wait until sometimes we're looking for a destination or a thing to happen.

When the pandemic happened, on one hand it's the most terrible, exhausting thing in the world, right? Because it's scary. Nobody knows what's happening. On the other side. It also was an opportunity for me to connect with my kid in a way I just didn't know we needed. And so I guess I'm giving a couple of tips here.

One is go explore and do all the things. Don't wait until the pandemic is over. Like you can go to the park now. You can go to places very safely now, just the same way we could kind of in the middle of the pandemic. And then the other piece is just allowing your kid to be, to make the mistakes to be as free as possible.

To enjoy life. And again, that joy piece, allowing them to experience joy, the joy of the world, and those are things and, and we all do it right? Your kid is doing something and you're like, your immediate reaction is like, don't do that. You know? You wanna save them and protect them and don't do that and jump in.

And it's, I that's hard because I so much want to protect them. And I also then have to ask the question of myself, why am I protective? Like, why am I protecting him from falling? He can get back up. I know why I wanna do that, but I really want him to experience this so he knows what it feels like, because if I never give him that experience, he won't know how to get up.

He won't know how to brush hisself off. So just having that joy. Having the ability to just live freely and take advantage of every moment we have. That's the best advice I can give to any mom of any type. All the types, cuz there are lots of us.

[00:28:35] Krista: Yes. Well, what did I leave out Kia that you were hoping I would touch on or that you just feel is important to either circle back to or just an important. Reflecting on these last seven years and then the 42 weeks before that, you know, all of the...

[00:28:55] Kia: Yes. It goes by so quickly. People say that, you know, the elders in our community will say that like it goes by so quickly and you hear that so often. But it does, you wake up and their face has filled out more and their personality is more developed and they have a lot of language, and they're saying words and they're being funny or whatever the thing is that they're gonna do, right. Whatever their personality is. My son happens to be super hilarious. He tells really good slash bad jokes. I mean, he's a great joke teller. All of it just, it happens in the blink of an eye, literally. So one thing that I have done as I mentioned before about kind of joy and, and experiences is. Document those memories and make sure that you're in the memory as well. So, for instance, recently, I have a girlfriend from when I was younger and she's married to a guy that I also know, and he had posted some pictures, some snow day pictures of him, throwing his daughter up. They have a young daughter, maybe one I think, and I just inboxed him and I said very lovingly, I said, lovingly, will you please make sure that my friend gets pictures? And he was like, thank you for thinking about her. I absolutely will make sure she gets pictures. We already have some, because the moms never get in. We're always the one documenting the pictures, so make sure that you set up the tripod. That's what we do. In the backyard, and I have an Apple watch and you can put the little timer on and then just run and play and let the pictures just snap.

And it makes for really great memories because you wanna remember that moment too, and maybe even what you were going through. Like for me, it's not gonna always be great and sun shiny. And so even remembering those moments is, wow, we overcame together. It's the beauty of the picture, the beauty of the story, the picture tells.

I still wanna document it even if it's a really rough time. So that's probably the last thing I would say to people is just as you're having all the experiences, make sure that you're in the experience too, in the photo, in the memory, in the video so that people can, so you can go back and look and then also your kids can go back and look.

And one last thing that I have. I haven't been doing it, but I will be doing it soon. I bought this book, it's called Letters to You. I mean, I know people are not, I'm showing it to you, but I know people can't necessarily see it. But it's a blank book for parents to write every day for their kid. And so this woman that I follow online, she writes every day for five minutes for her kids in this. And it's something where, not necessarily if something happens to you, but in the event something happens to you, then you have something for your kid, but also just in general, you can document what was happening. And so, I just got this in, so I'm planning on writing in this.

And um, there was a movie out kind of about this too. I think it's called Journal to Jordan, but it's about a guy who had passed away, but he had left a journal, while he was in the military to his son. And so the mom was able to read the stories and the journal entries to the son.

So those are just my last little pieces for moms out there.

[00:32:08] Krista: Letters to you. Taking five minutes or hey, two minutes, whatever time you've got to sit down and reflect. I love that, and I'm so glad you brought it up because I was actually talking with my cousin shortly after Chloe was born, and that was something she had recommended too. I bought a journal.

Now it's just a, a regular blank journal, but I've not done it. And so her saying it now you saying it, I'm like, okay, this is a pattern. I need to do this. Because I know personally, just thinking about my own parents, how special that would be, getting something like that from them.

So certainly anything I could do to just color in the lines, if you will. Paint the picture for things that as a little girl right now, she's not gonna know or understand, but when she is 15, you know, 18, 20.

[00:33:06] Kia: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:06] Krista: Our age, she can pick up and and read it and think, oh my gosh, this clicks now.

That makes sense.

[00:33:14] Kia: Yep. Absolutely. And then the other thing I did for Christmas was I took because we do the Mommy and Teddy adventures which is really our traveling is I put together a book of all of his adventures. So it's a tabletop book for my parents. So they have them of our adventures throughout the year. And so I've committed to doing that every year going forward. Memories are just so important and that joy is so important in a lot of ways that joy is our resistance to what's happening in the world, right?

It's our way to push back, not to neglect what's happening in the world, but to also say, I know what's happening in the world and I still am choosing to show up for my kid and find joy in whatever we can find joy in. So it's a both and versus a either or.

[00:33:59] Krista: Kia, I feel like there are so many different directions that we could continue going and out of respect for your time and also our listeners time. I am going to wrap this, but hey, maybe there will be a part two. So many great nuggets from this conversation today. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your time and sharing. Like we said, every mom's and every parent's experience is different from, conceiving the baby to having the baby and raising that baby. And so we're all in this together. There is no shame. To your point earlier about we might not do it if we knew all of the details. So true. On the other side, I think it's very easy sometimes as moms to feel alone on an island, and so, just being willing to share our stories and I so appreciate you coming on here, sharing yours today. So that, that mama who's listening, who's terrified of having the C-section, similar to how I was can hear it's fine. Everything's gonna turn out okay. At the end of the day, we all just wanna show up on the other side with healthy babies.

[00:35:15] Kia: That's right. Thank you for having me. I'm so honored always to be with you. So I'm excited to hear this when it comes out and to be in the community of moms that you're collecting. So thank you.

[00:35:27] Krista: thank you so much Kia.

[END OF EPISODE]

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